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	<title>Comments on: Should we use &lt;i&gt; and &lt;b&gt; tags?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://rishida.net/blog/?feed=rss2&#038;p=134" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://rishida.net/blog/?p=134</link>
	<description>News of changes to my main site, and W3C related posts.</description>
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		<title>By: r12a</title>
		<link>http://rishida.net/blog/?p=134&#038;cpage=1#comment-7301</link>
		<dc:creator>r12a</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rishida.net/blog/?p=134#comment-7301</guid>
		<description>Hi Michael.  I&#039;m assuming silently that when a document is marked up semantically the translation will usually have the same element structure as the original - which is different from requiring it.

I&#039;m not ruling out the possibility of the translation changing the structure. For example, French can express emphasis through words, and may not need italicisation (eg. &lt;span lang=&quot;fr&quot; xml:lang=&quot;fr&quot;&gt;C&#039;est moi qui l&#039;ai fait!&lt;/span&gt; rather than &lt;em&gt;I&lt;/em&gt; did it!)  My experience is, however, that this is not very common - particularly when dealing with non-literary translations.

But I think that even if you wanted to change the element structure, you&#039;d be better off working with semantic markup than presentational markup.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Michael.  I&#8217;m assuming silently that when a document is marked up semantically the translation will usually have the same element structure as the original &#8211; which is different from requiring it.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not ruling out the possibility of the translation changing the structure. For example, French can express emphasis through words, and may not need italicisation (eg. <span lang="fr" xml:lang="fr">C&#8217;est moi qui l&#8217;ai fait!</span> rather than &lt;em&gt;I&lt;/em&gt; did it!)  My experience is, however, that this is not very common &#8211; particularly when dealing with non-literary translations.</p>
<p>But I think that even if you wanted to change the element structure, you&#8217;d be better off working with semantic markup than presentational markup.</p>
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		<title>By: C. M. Sperberg-McQueen</title>
		<link>http://rishida.net/blog/?p=134&#038;cpage=1#comment-7299</link>
		<dc:creator>C. M. Sperberg-McQueen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 01:22:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rishida.net/blog/?p=134#comment-7299</guid>
		<description>Aren&#039;t you assuming silently that the translation of a document is required to have the same element structure as the original?  Whence such a requirement?  Since (as you observe) it&#039;s wrong-headed, why put up with such a requirement if others try to impose it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aren&#8217;t you assuming silently that the translation of a document is required to have the same element structure as the original?  Whence such a requirement?  Since (as you observe) it&#8217;s wrong-headed, why put up with such a requirement if others try to impose it?</p>
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		<title>By: r12a</title>
		<link>http://rishida.net/blog/?p=134&#038;cpage=1#comment-7288</link>
		<dc:creator>r12a</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 14:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rishida.net/blog/?p=134#comment-7288</guid>
		<description>Hi Ian.  Actually I wrote this &lt;em&gt;because&lt;/em&gt; I had just read the latest editors copy of the HTML5 WD.  :-) 

I like how you have defined &lt;em&gt; and &lt;strong&gt;, and to a point I like the explanations of &lt;i&gt; and &lt;b&gt;.  But they are still presented as somewhat vague presentational devices in that they can cover a range of semantics: &lt;i&gt; is suggested for things &quot;such as a taxonomic designation, a technical term, an idiomatic phrase from another language, a thought, a ship name, or some other prose&quot; and the examples suggest Latin names for flora and fauna and dream sequences; &lt;b&gt; is suggested for &quot;key words in a document abstract, product names in a review, or other spans of text&quot; and the example include special eye-catchers and lede sentences. 

And then follows the phrase &quot;whose typical typographic presentation is boldened/italicized&quot;.  

I&#039;m trying to make the points that 
&lt;ol&gt;
&lt;li&gt;during localisation, people may want to separate the presentational styling for the suggested uses where more than one appears in a localised version of a document (ie. not all italicised or boldened)&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;such things may &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; be typically boldened/italicised in other scripts, ie. that may not be the best default in Chinese/Japanese&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;/ol&gt;

Therefore... 

The spec says that &quot;The i/b element should be used as a last resort when no other element is more appropriate.&quot;, but I think it implies that once you have exhausted the elements offered by HTML5, you have run out of options.  You haven&#039;t.  You could use class names to label things.

So I would suggest an alternative wording along the lines of &quot;The i/b element should only be used as a last resort when no other element is available and you want the text to be visually distinct in the absence of or inability to use a style sheet. This should only be used as a fallback device, however. It is much better to use an i/b element with a class name that describes the intent of the text, and associate that where possible with a rule in a style sheet.&quot; 

For example, I would prefer the spec to change its examples slightly like this:

&lt;pre&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The &lt;i class=&quot;taxonomy&quot;&gt;felis silvestris catus&lt;/i&gt; is cute.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The term &lt;i class=&quot;term&quot;&gt;prose content&lt;/i&gt; is defined above.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There is a certain &lt;i class=&quot;foriegn&quot; lang=&quot;fr&quot;&gt;je ne sais quoi&lt;/i&gt; in the air.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/pre&gt;

If one document contained all these examples, I would now be free to restyle them individually and separately as I wish, without having to trawl through the HTML to make the changes.

But I should probably now send this to the HTML5 list for discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Ian.  Actually I wrote this <em>because</em> I had just read the latest editors copy of the HTML5 WD.  <img src='http://rishida.net/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>I like how you have defined &lt;em&gt; and &lt;strong&gt;, and to a point I like the explanations of &lt;i&gt; and &lt;b&gt;.  But they are still presented as somewhat vague presentational devices in that they can cover a range of semantics: &lt;i&gt; is suggested for things &#8220;such as a taxonomic designation, a technical term, an idiomatic phrase from another language, a thought, a ship name, or some other prose&#8221; and the examples suggest Latin names for flora and fauna and dream sequences; &lt;b&gt; is suggested for &#8220;key words in a document abstract, product names in a review, or other spans of text&#8221; and the example include special eye-catchers and lede sentences. </p>
<p>And then follows the phrase &#8220;whose typical typographic presentation is boldened/italicized&#8221;.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m trying to make the points that </p>
<ol>
<li>during localisation, people may want to separate the presentational styling for the suggested uses where more than one appears in a localised version of a document (ie. not all italicised or boldened)</li>
<li>such things may <em>not</em> be typically boldened/italicised in other scripts, ie. that may not be the best default in Chinese/Japanese</li>
</ol>
<p>Therefore&#8230; </p>
<p>The spec says that &#8220;The i/b element should be used as a last resort when no other element is more appropriate.&#8221;, but I think it implies that once you have exhausted the elements offered by HTML5, you have run out of options.  You haven&#8217;t.  You could use class names to label things.</p>
<p>So I would suggest an alternative wording along the lines of &#8220;The i/b element should only be used as a last resort when no other element is available and you want the text to be visually distinct in the absence of or inability to use a style sheet. This should only be used as a fallback device, however. It is much better to use an i/b element with a class name that describes the intent of the text, and associate that where possible with a rule in a style sheet.&#8221; </p>
<p>For example, I would prefer the spec to change its examples slightly like this:</p>
<pre>
&lt;p&gt;The &lt;i class=&quot;taxonomy&quot;&gt;felis silvestris catus&lt;/i&gt; is cute.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The term &lt;i class=&quot;term&quot;&gt;prose content&lt;/i&gt; is defined above.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There is a certain &lt;i class=&quot;foriegn&quot; lang=&quot;fr&quot;&gt;je ne sais quoi&lt;/i&gt; in the air.&lt;/p&gt;
</pre>
<p>If one document contained all these examples, I would now be free to restyle them individually and separately as I wish, without having to trawl through the HTML to make the changes.</p>
<p>But I should probably now send this to the HTML5 list for discussion.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: r12a</title>
		<link>http://rishida.net/blog/?p=134&#038;cpage=1#comment-7286</link>
		<dc:creator>r12a</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 14:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rishida.net/blog/?p=134#comment-7286</guid>
		<description>@Dom: I saw point one as a practical issue for localisation.  Point 2 is more about authors changing their mindset, in general, about use of semantic vs presentation markup.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dom: I saw point one as a practical issue for localisation.  Point 2 is more about authors changing their mindset, in general, about use of semantic vs presentation markup.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Hickson</title>
		<link>http://rishida.net/blog/?p=134&#038;cpage=1#comment-7284</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Hickson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:42:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rishida.net/blog/?p=134#comment-7284</guid>
		<description>In HTML5, as defined today, B, STRONG, I, and EM are entirely different from each other; they cover four different use cases. Under the HTML5 definitions, talking about working out whether one should be using EM or I, or STRONG or B, or EM or STRONG, indicates that one is not up to date with what the elements are defined as. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In HTML5, as defined today, B, STRONG, I, and EM are entirely different from each other; they cover four different use cases. Under the HTML5 definitions, talking about working out whether one should be using EM or I, or STRONG or B, or EM or STRONG, indicates that one is not up to date with what the elements are defined as. <img src='http://rishida.net/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Dom</title>
		<link>http://rishida.net/blog/?p=134&#038;cpage=1#comment-7283</link>
		<dc:creator>Dom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:33:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rishida.net/blog/?p=134#comment-7283</guid>
		<description>Is there really a difference between your points 1 and 2? Isn&#039;t localization a specific application of the semantic vs presentation opposition?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there really a difference between your points 1 and 2? Isn&#8217;t localization a specific application of the semantic vs presentation opposition?</p>
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